What The F#*@ Is This Guy Doing?!
What the hell is Barack freaking Obama doing to our country?! My God….everywhere you turn the guy is spending money that we just don’t have. Here’s a little example; and here you go those of you that fell into the “blame it on Bush” mentality.
When George W. Bush left office we had a deficit of 880 billion dollars…yep, almost a trillion. Since his highness Barack Obama has taken office he’s put us into a mega debt of 7 trillion dollars….AND COUNTING! And if he gets his God-awful health care plan passed that mega-deficit will easily reach 9 trillion; probably more. We’re in so much trouble…it has gone beyond scary, it’s totally frightening. Plus, his socialistic idealog is showing in ways that even the experts couldn’t predict, and he’s already started in on breaking the campaign promises. Now….to be fair, all presidents wind up breaking at least some of their promises because once they take office they get information that they didn’t have during the campaigning. They find out that some things just cannot be done.
For starters he promised to change Washington, rid us of the status-quo that has plagued that town for decades. And no more lobbyists, no more cronyism in the White House, no more playing the “blame game.” I’m sure you’ll all remember is campaign slogans….shit like, “Change you can believe in.” Oh…and yeah, no more partisan crap. Promising to bring both parties together for the greater good of the country; what a fucking joke!”
Well…he’s gone so partisan it’s freaky, he still blames Bush for everything, his political life, and that of his closest minions is such a deep pool of double standards and hypocrisy it makes me want to cry, and he still acts as though he’s on the campaign trail with all of his prime time press conferences, TV commercials, and still carrying on these “town hall” meetings….yeah….prime time. I don’t know about you folks but I’m in some serious Obama-fatigue. I do think that American’s may be finally starting to wake up to see what’s really happening. When people start to really investigate his health care proposal, and how it’ll take away choice, it’ll take away the elderly’s choice when it comes to life saving procedures and medicines.
On page 425 it says in black and white that EVERYONE on Social Security, (will include all Senior Citizens and SSI people) will go to MANDATORY counseling every 5 years to learn and to choose from ways to end your kids(and your life). Health care will be denied based on age. 500 Billion will be cut from Seniors healthcare. The only way for that to happen is to drastically cut health care, the oldest and the sickest will be cut first. Paying for your own care will not be an option
So this is the kind of thing we can expect from Barack Obama’s health care plan. Doesn’t it make you feel really good to have this kind of nationalized health care, or rather, socialistic medicine? It doesn’t for me. And it’s no wonder that he wanted this bill passed passed before the house and senate went on their August break. Yeah….cram that baby down their throats as quick as you can, before the American people find out what’s in the bill, and what they can expect. This is the kind of thing that Barack Obama ia all about.
I tried as best I could to give the guy a break, give the man a chance lets see what he’s got. I figured that since he’s been elected anyway it would make sense. But it didn’t take long before his true colors began to show….loud and bright. And now, it gets even worse. Barack Obama has instituted a website that one can go to and report what the White House calls “fishy” emails or other websites or someone in the public that is criticizing Obama’s health care plan. That does beyond outrages! Can you imagine if George W. Bush had done something like that, the media frenzy that would’ve ensued? The house and senate would be calling for a special investigation into the despicable act, they would want to form a special committee that would monitor his activities and on and on.
But Barack Obama gets a free pass, he gets a free pass from the mainstream media and he gets a pass from Washington. So much for change you can believe in ‘eh? Well anyway….his poll numbers are slipping pretty good as more and more people are finding out about his plan and having had time to assess the man and his deeds are becoming disheartened. And lastly…Obama and the DNC are trying to say that American’s are taking on a “mob mentality” at the town hall meetings that the politicians are having while on break. A person speaks out about how frustrated we are at what they’re doing and all of a sudden you’re bad….you’re a “redneck teabagger.” You can damn well bet that this will be far from my last post on this guy…count on it because Barack Obama has got me really pissed off, and I’m sick to death of the incredible double standards and his uber-hypocrisy and his complete and utter arrogance!
rubicon
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Oh Rubi Dubi you did NOT try to give him a fair chance. You’ve been bashing him from day one.
Am I wild about all the spending? No, but it’s obvious that something needs to be done to fix the problems our country is facing. Status quo wasn’t working and was digging us in deeper. From what I have seen and read on the news lately, there are signs the economy is slowly turning around. I’m going to continue to hold out hope that things all work out for America.
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Well well back to your old mudslinging self I see, lol.
Let me ask you this. I the republicans would have wanted someone in office, wouldn’t they have given us a better choice to begin with?
The way I see it, they didn’t want one of their own in office when the crap hit the fan. So they willingly allowed the first black president to be the fall guy. I mean what more could they ask for.
Everyone knew that this country was in such a big mess from the Bush admin that it would only get worse before it got better.
Dont get me wrong I don’t like a lot of Obama’s ideas, or methods, but we didn’t get here overnight and we won’t get out overnight either.
Personally I think Obama needs to do a little more follow thru instead of filling up the basket before it is emptied, but where are you really going to go when your up to your neck in crap, lol
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sounds like the old Rubicon is back! Let’s give him a bit longer in my opinion – I know I don’t live there but from this side of the pond believe me people are not speaking badly of the US any more and they were before so he’s doing something right!
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“You’ve been bashing him from day one.”Deeje….I’ve been critical of Obama from day one, and of course you could expect that from me. But there’s a difference between being critical and bashing. But now? I’m slamming the hell outta the man!!! The economy is cyclical…always has been. If Obama had tapered his spending some then when the economy does begin to rebound, we won’t have so much debt.
Throwing money at the problem and then expotentially growing the government will never help, much less cure the problem. The is something that the Dems always do. Spending, growing, and taxation. They want you to be dependent on the government. Have you counted the number of “czars” that Obama has appointed lately?? 33 at last count, 8 1/2 times that of any previous administration! And each one is vying for as much money as they can from the budget, plus they’ll be growing the government at the same time.There is no budget, it’s all red, it’s all debt thanks to Obama.
Everyone loves to blame Bush for every little thing and that’s fucked up. Everything is NOT Bush’s fault!! Many things that went on in his administration were cyclical in nature, plus you’ve fallen victim to a bias as hell media and an opposition party that hated him, and hated him bad! All you ever heard from the media was how bad things were…name one way or one thing that effected you, or someone you know negatively during Bush’s 2 terms. I’ll bet you can’t. And take for instance unemployment…during Bush’s terms the unemployment rate never crested 7%, and the budget deficit was at 880 billion. Obama takes office and seven months later unemployment and the deficit fly through the roof! Unemployment is almost at 10% in Michigan and climbing to that in other states, nationally the rate is at 14%! That is absolutely horrible, jobs are being lost in the nation by the month at a rate in the hundreds of thousands. The state I currently reside in the numbers have gotten to 654,000 jobs lost. And these numbers both state and nationally are figured based on the number of unemployment claims filed, it doesn’t include those that aren’t eligible to file a claim. And Obama STILL blames the Bush admin. That’s sad…Obama, his admin, his czars, and his party, with the media on their side will be feeding you with nothing but misinformation. Oh, and, the budget deficit has now reached 7 trillion dollars, and if his health care plan makes it thru the senate, then that number is expected to reach 9 trillion…possibly more, and most of the economic experts predict that and they lean to the “more” side. So….how bad was it during Bush’s 2 terms compared to Obama’s 7 months? Look at it, a community organizer, a senator for 150 days, now president, and he has truly bitten off way more that he cam chew.
Bobby…there ya go blaming Bush, you need to knock it off buddy-boy…I’m tellin’ ya.
I agree completely though that my party had nothing in the way of a candidate so they just laid down and surrendered. Obama was pledging all this change and change the status quo, but instead its only gotten worse. But American’s are starting to see this and it definitely reflects in all the polls. So…I ain’t the only one,,,,,mister!
Chandra…you’re right to an extent but I’ll bet you didn’t hear the things that Sarkozy, president of, (yuck), France, was saying after their meeting. Among other things he was calling Obama a coward. If you say that, “Well, Obama promised to start drawing down troops from Iraq.” Bush had started that program months before Obama took office and look who gets the credit. Plus it was Bush’s orders to send more troops to Afghanistan and that was already happening before Obama came along.
Yeah…a lot of Europeans like Obama, but for all the wrong reasons. And since socialism is so prevalent in Europe, and Obama is turning us that way, well they like that. But history and present day prove that a socialistic nation is a failure, there all broke, there are none that have been successful. If you look at their economies and the true conditions of the state run health care systems, you’ll see it. None are working according to plan.
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Heh, after 10 years the world finally starts to perceive United States as a normal country, and not as a giant social experiment for dogmatic economic doctrines (and I’m an economist myself) and a museum of medieval beliefs. But I guess it can be unsettling for some. The guy is doing your nation a huge favour. We will all be overtaken by China, but at least people will not laugh and/or shake their heads in disbelief at your president (which has been the case for a decade now).
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Also, I’m not sure where you get your info about Europe from but it is pretty obvious that you had no contact with what you perceive as European socialism. I live in Sweden, the mother of all socialist states (excluding authoritarian) and the standard of living is higher then in U.S. So is Human Development Index, Gini Coefficient and other measures of general wealth. Higher taxes? Sure. But what we have is top-notch health care. For free, for everybody, with waiting times capped at 3 months for even most complicated surgeries. My mother’s monthly supply of leukemia pills cost twice my monthly salary and how much does she pay for them? Zero.
Sweden has been socialist for… well nearly 100 years now. So has Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Finland. Socialist states can function just fine, I think you are confusing them with communist (socialist authoritarian) states. We are just like Americans, except we have health care, almost no gunshot deaths and less invasions of foreign countries.
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Obama campaigned on and won the election on promises of healthcare reform – and on promise of providing a public option, supported still by 76% of respondents in an ABC poll. The townhall opposition seems to be the same 25% of people still clinging to the Bush regieme until the death throes and subsequent election of the Anti-Bush.
using unemployment figures the way you are is Hannitised misrepresentation – a first week grad student knows that Unemployment figures are a lagging indicator of the economic cycle. Firms reporting bad results 6 months previously who started putting people on notice periods, letting contracts run out, dealin with unions, finsihing paper work, waiting for lagged invoices – all delay employees leaving a company after bad results. The unemployment rates in the first months of Obamas term had 0 to do with him.
Much of the spendning Obama has done will be seen back in through the treasury as down the road income from the infrastructure projects ion the stimulous, money spent on keeping teachers employed will be een back in their payroll taxes and the taxes from the kids who otherwise wouldn’t have graduated. The billions pumped into banks is already being repayed – the automakers needed saving despite themselves lest an entire state dissapear off the economic map with hundreds if thousands of jobs and the subsequent unemplyment benefits and regeneration funds that would have to be spent down the road.
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“Also, I’m not sure where you get your info about Europe…”
Bitzky…maybe I’m wrong, but I thought that Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway and Iceland are all part of what we call Scandinavia, and not considered to be Europe. So naturally I wasn’t referring to your country or the others named. But as I said, I could be wrong.
I’ve traveled throughout Denmark and Sweden and could not have loved it more. When examples of the failures of nationalized health care are used, it’s usually places like Canada and England and other countries in that region…never yours.
And it’s hard to explain why Canadians cross the vast northern border in droves to get their surgeries and procedures done here in the United States. Is it because they don’t have to wait, and they can be certain of excellent care?. And you mentioned a 3 month cap on the wait time…3 months? So what happens if your situation dictates, and deems necessary that your surgery or procedure be done immediately? Like, if you need an angiogram, or a heart stint etc, and it’s needed right away…still a 3 month wait? To me that doesn’t sound like “sound” health care.
One of the founding principles of this country was the freedom to choose. This health care ostensibly is supposed to increase our choices…it wont’. Within 10 years at least, private insurers will collapse because they cannot compete, and employers who provide insurance for their employees will have to eventually push the employee to the government run health care because they can’t afford to have their insurance taxed. This is a fact…not fiction, so where will our freedom of choice go? Out the door that’s where.
I have excellent health insurance, that includes dental, mental health, emergency room visits, and hospital stays. I can be referred to a specialist with no wait time, if I would need it I could have any procedure done immediately, and I can receive care by most any doctor and can go to any hospital, no wait, no muss, no fuss. Why in the world would I want that taken away from me?? And Obama’s plan will do that, and you know it!
I know that you’re very much pro-socialism, and very much pro-Obama…and that’s fine, even though you’re born and bred in a foreign country. But this country was not founded that way, it’s not designed to operate in a socialistic way, and most American’s don’t want bigger government or higher taxes. And because your relegated to limited news and information, and follow polls that are for the most part quite ambiguous at best, you can’t really know what our heartland wants and how we all feel. You’re only absorbing one small portion of it. But I do appreciate your ideals and thoughts.
“and on promise of providing a public option, supported still by 76% of respondents in an ABC poll.
Wozza, Wozza, Wozza…Alistair, (hope I got that right), you could not have picked a more bias news outlet if you tried! Oh…you could have gone with NBC or MSNBC, or even CBS to get your real and balanced and un-bias polling data. They’re all soooo in the tank for Barack Obama!
“On Health Care, 51% Fear Government More Than Insurance Companies.”
“Just 36% Confident Stimulus Money Will Be Used for Roads and Bridges.”
“71% Say Obama’s Policies Have Driven Up Deficit.”
“54% Favor Middle Class Tax Cuts Over New Health Care Spending.”
“32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose.”
“45% Rate Obama Good or Excellent As A Leader, Down 19 Points From January.”
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/
http://harris tracking poll/
I can certainly rattle off more if you like and from other polling centers with no affiliate to any news outlet or political party. Any ABC/Washington Post polls, or any tracking poll taken by the main three media outlets and their partners are completely bias and wrong. Their poll questions are designed so that no matter how it adds up it will represent their views. The questions are very ambiguous, and in many cases very vague. The questions are all “yes or no”, and as I said, tilted to favor Barack Obama. I’ve taken some myself so I’m not just spittin’ in the wind.
“using unemployment figures the way you are is Hannitised misrepresentation.”
Sorry man… but that’s simply not true. The unemployment numbers released to us are not correct. The only data that’s available is what states report from their unemployment claims. Unemployed people who are ineligible for, or can’t claim unemployment compensation for whatever reason do not have a voice, therefore they’re not included in any reports or states data. And census reports do not reflect unemployment.
“Much of the spendning Obama has done will be seen back in through the treasury as down the road income from the infrastructure projects ion the stimulous,”
I don’t know how you’re figuring that, or where you’re getting your math from. None of the stimulus money has gone to any state specifically for the infrastructure as of yet…and that’s mostly the individual states problems, they’re just not ready, or prepared, to take on these projects. And the national debt continues to rise, the treasury is printing money that cannot be repaid other than to raise taxes on the middle class, another Obama campaign promise…that he would NOT raise taxes on the middle class. He has no choice, the top 1% of the earners here cannot carry the national debt. They represent just 1%, a tiny fraction of this country. The rich will stop spending which will have a pretty good impact on the economy. Any business’ that nets over $250,000 annually will have to lay off “more” workers, and again will hurt the economy even more. Throwing money at the problem and then raising taxes is never the answer. But yet this is what the liberal Democrats believe in even though every time it’s been tried it has failed. This is a true, tested, and tried failure…regardless of how you support it.
You’re only addressing a small portion of what’s going on over here, plus, you’re pro-Obama thereby coloring your talking points. You don’t address the fact that in the bill, “Section H.R: 3200″, a 2 1/2% payroll tax will be imposed on employers that do not provide insurance options for their employees. Private citizens will eventually be taxed at a higher rate if they don’t have insurance.
“Section H.R. 2212″ if you’re 70 years of age or over, and you develop cancer, you’re considered to old to help…read through it. Mandatory counseling for “end of life” shit? Gimme a break…that’s a personal decision and the government should in no way be involved.
How about the “Cash for Clunkers” program. Congress passed a bill that was supposed to go for 4 months, supposedly to help the environment, raise government MPG standards et al. It lasted for 4 days, the money ran out. If congress can’t effectively run a cash for clunkers program; what makes you think that this government could possibly run a health care program??
Our senate just passed a bill for 2 billion dollars more for this program, they hope, they hope, that it might last for 2 weeks. Where does the money come from? It will be our taxes eventually, our children and our grandchildren will be stuck with this debt. You just cannot keep printing money that we don’t have, to solve deficit problems. Our debt is at 7 trillion and you’re ok with that…you wouldn’t be if you lived and worked here, or, if you were an American.
100 years ago a great Republican, President Abraham Lincoln, spoke very clearly and concisely about “A government of the people, for the people, and by the people.” This is how America is supposed to work.
Barack Obama and everyone that he’s surrounded himself with will change that, they already are, it’ll be “Of the governemt, for the government, and by the government.” American’s will not tolerate that!
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I PM’d this to Rube because I didn’t want to embarrass him in public, but he made me post it here.
Rube, Sweden is a part of Europe, ya daft Yank!
http://europa.eu/abc/european_countries/index_en.htm
I don’t think some Europeans actually realise how large Europe is, let alone anyone outside. 50 sovereign states, 7 nonsovereign territories and regions, 4 partially recognised republics and 3 unrecognised republics.
Booya.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries
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Scandinavia and Iceland are both most assuredly European nations.
So far as the “wonderful” American health care system goes; yes, we have great health care here — if you have a good enough job, that is.
For those of us who don’t have good enough jobs, like me, those of us with no health insurance or inadequate health insurance, access to health care, especially the routine preventive care that can forestall major medical illnesses down the road, is extremely limited.
I have no health insurance and have not for nearly five years now, nor does my job provide any paid sick leave whatsoever. It’s easy to say “why don’t you get another job”, but the reality is quite different. My town was recently voted by Fortune magazine as being one of the “10 Worst Small Cities” in which to get a job. in ohter words, I’m lucky just to have a job at all right now. And people I know who have better jobs than me, who formerly had adequate health insurance, are now underinsured, with ther companies scaling back on the quality of insurance offered in order to save money.
As one without health insurance, nor the resources to buy my own, and also ineligible for Medicaid because I’m not on welfare nor have minor children living in my home, the situation is pretty grim. Health care for me is pretty much limited to praying that I don’t get sick. I can’t go to the doc for any sort of preventive health care and am pretty much limited to resorting to the emergency room for a dire emergency, the circumstances of which could have likely been avoided with the preventive health care I can’t afford.
Presently, I have a cataract in one eye and am effectively blind in that eye. I can’t afford the operation that would easily restore normal sight in that eye, nor could I afford to take unpaid time off from work to convalesce from such an operation even if I could find a doctor to donate his services. I can only pray the other eye doesn’t go as well.
And I think there’s something seriously wrong that in the richest nation on Earth, I have no access to a simple operation that would easily restore normal sight to that eye, simply because I don’t have a good enough job.
Access to health care for everyone, from the lowliest prison inmate to the wealthiest philanthropist should be a given in any civilized society and no one should be denied full access because of a lack of money. It’s just that simple. If our society can find money to build the bombs, then it certainly can find the money to pay the doctors and hospitals.
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Lib, I completely agree. The American system may be perfectly fine for anyone with, as you say, a decent job. For that person, the NHS in comparison (when you consider how much tax we pay on salary in the UK) probably seems pretty expensive. But the NHS is still available in the UK for those who pay reduced tax or no tax. And since we’ve always had to pay tax (in my lifetime anyway, heh), it becomes somewhat overlooked. Introducing a higher tax rate in the US to cover a national healthcare system would probably go down like a lead balloon. But then you have to weigh in the factor that it means ANYONE will be eligible for healthcare.
In SA, now, I need to have two things done – removal of IUD, and finishing up a root canal. In the UK I could have had both of these done within a week for free, regardless of whether I’m paying tax or not (heck, I could be homeless and get it done). Here, I have to pay the equivalent of about $150 for the tooth and about $200 for the IUD, with a minimum three weeks wait. I even have to pay to just SEE a doctor, regardless of whether he treats me or not.
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Also, salaries in the UK are generally higher than their US equivalents which I imagine is to compensate for the increased tax we pay. I know it’s difficult to judge considering the size of the US compared to the UK and the different state laws, but the minimum wage in the UK is around $3 an hour higher than *any* of the minimum wages throughout the US.
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As Pixie said, Sweden is very much part of Europe (even the European Union) but that’s not the point. Sweden lies indeed pretty far to the left when it comes to being a welfare state. However I am very surprised that you describe UK’s economy as socialist. What about Ireland, Australia, Japan, UAE, Russia? My point is: do you consider ANY other developed economies to be non-socialist? Because you act as if United States are the only true capitalist economy left, an example for others to follow. It is simply not true. You, my friend, are the -anomaly- of real-life (as opposed to textbook) capitalistic world, a place where macroeconomic models tried to be implemented without correction for market imperfections. Instead of looking for better solutions, U.S. seem to have regressed under Dubya. Now is your chance to catch up.
Returning to health care… I think the main difference between Americans and Europeans is that in Europe healthcare is considered a -basic right- of every citizen. That is, EVERY citizen, not just the employed ones, to any extent. In U.S. it is not. Oddly enough, the same people usually consider possesion of firearms a right of every citizen. In other words, killing before healing, which sums up the discussion nicely. For some reason you keep equating universal health care with socialism. In Europe we have a patchwork of countries (roughly 30 of them, Scandinavia included
and they have both socialist, liberal and conservative governments but they have one thing in common: even the most right-leaning low-tax small-government ones provide universal healthcare.
Oh, when I referred to the 3 months cap it was 3 months -cap-. If an operation needs to be performed sooner, it is performed sooner, often immediately, of course.
You seem to accuse everybody as being pro-Obama, and therefore biased. A suitable reply is that you are pro-Big Insurance biased, since they are the ones making tons of money on the current system and you are swallowing their billion dollar-worth propaganda without even blinking.
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“Oddly enough, the same people usually consider possesion of firearms a right of every citizen. In other words, killing before healing, which sums up the discussion nicely.”
*big cheer*
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Yeah, yeah, yeah….ya ‘ole fart! I stand corrected. But as I told you in the PM that I did say not once, but twice that I could be wrong. So ya see…I covered my ass so I wouldn’t look like a “dumbass”! Not one word from you Del!!!
Will…I completely empathize with you, and in many ways you’re correct. However…if you were admitted to the hospital through the emergency room, and didn’t have any insurance, you’d then become eligible for Medicaid which covers everything at no cost to you and most prescriptions have only a dollar copay. But of course that’s under those dire circumstances.
And for anyone to refute you by saying why don’t you get a better job.” Screw them…in this current economy and the unemployment rate just climbing higher and higher, you’re lucky to have a job at all. So am I for that matter, so is most everyone else in this country.
Obama’s plan may be right for you and others in your situation…but at what cost? And in the end you’ll be paying for it too, in more areas than one.
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Michael, I never said that Obama’s plan was the best one — or the only one. But something has to be done about the uneven access to health care in the US. At the very least, they could extend Medicaid to all working Americans whose jobs don’t provide it and who cannot afford to buy their own.
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[quote]Oh Rubi Dubi you did NOT try to give him a fair chance. You’ve been bashing him from day one.[/quote]
I’ve given him a fair chance…and I haven’t said much of anything about him.
So far, other than being a good speaker, and doing a great job of being self deprecating on the world stage, He’s not done a helluva lot that’s impressive.
The idea of this healthcare package is foolhardy and short sighted. The bill itself is poorly understood and mostly unread by those who are debating it. The programs it wants to put in place are not well defined and will ultimately cost far more than projected. It will make Waxman’s bloating of Medicare look like a mild cost overrun.
All this to accomplish what? Depending on who you listen to, we have somewhere between 30 and 60 million people uninsured. Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau state that the umber is actually roughly 46 million people in the US that were uninsured in 2007. That means that 15% of Americans were uninsured, according to the raw data totals.
When you break it down, however, the numbers come out a bit differently. First off, 10 to 15 million of that 46 million are people in the US illegally. As they have no right to be here, they have no right to expect healthcare.
Just over 6 million of that number are on goverment subsidized care like Medicaid or S-CHIP, but reported incorrectly on the Censuse when asked if they were insured, according to Department of Health and Human Services analysis.
Another 4.3 million could get free or heavily subsidized healthcare, but have never signed up.
So of off the top, with the most conservative estimate, you have 20 million who either have insurance, could get it if they’d get off their ass and apply, or shouldn’t have it at all beacuse they shouldn’t be here in the first place.
Which means we’re not contemplating a program for 20 million people, or 6.7% of the population who are uninsured, and we’re going to spend trillions of dollars over the next ten years, payed for by the other 93.3% of the population who are already insured. In addition, as a bonus, we’ll basically wreck the current system that is working for the other 280 million Americans, and just for fun, we’ll thrown all sorts of new regulations not currently in place to limit care. And we’ll entrust all of this to the same government who’s been fucking up the medical care of Veterans since the VA was created.
Should be loads of fun.
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So a program for 6.7% of the population is not worth considering? It is okay then to exclude them from health care because their numbers are not large enough? How can any developed nation deny access to health care based on a statistic fallacy?
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A program for 6.7 % of the population might be worth considering, depending on whether or not you believe in wealth redistribution.
But allowing, for a moment, that you do…we’re not contemplating a program for 6.7% of the population. We’re looking at one for 100%. We don’t want to insure the uninsured…we want to insure everyone. In order to remove a splinter, we’re going to do a full body skin replacement. And what’s more important, we’re doing it when we don’t have the money to do it. We’ve already mortgaged off our grand children’s future to finance the debt on the bailouts and the stimulus.
Now we’re talking about spending even more money to insure people who don’t need it for a small percentage of people that do. All this without addressing the real problems, like tort reform, that are part of the system we already have, and will still continue to drive up the costs of healthcare that we will now steal from the populace in order to pay for.
Not only that, we have provisions in this bill for state determination of care choices. So we’ll be turning some of our choices on what care we get over to a government body.
And that’s the scariest part of this bill. It isn’t the money we’ll spend. It’s something like this
Having the goverment tell me I can’t have a procedure is as bad as dying because an HMO denied care.
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crap. It didn’t embed the video.
“something like this” refers to this link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo
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“My point is: do you consider ANY other developed economies to be non-socialist?”
Bitzky…no, I never said that. But you mentioned my home country of Australia and socialism. Here’s what Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said just recently.
“Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
Separately, Rudd angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation’s mosques.
Quote:
‘IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.’
‘This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.’
‘We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society. Learn the language!’
‘Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.’
‘We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.’
‘This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.’
‘If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE. We didn’t force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.’
So…does that seem like a very socialistic stance to you? I’m not trying to change the subject to Islam but the point is, that you seem to want to lump other countries into one category…you even included Japan! Where the heck did you come up with that one?
I don’t profess that everyone that thinks as you do is pro-Obama, that was not my intent. But you do carry many and much of the same beliefs as he does and that of his minions. Again that’s fine.
I said this to Del, and I’ll repeat it here…what you forget is that this country was not founded on the same principles as yours, it was not designed the same way as yours, and it wasn’t meant to work the same way as yours.Yes…we’re a very young country, but the majority of us stand by what our Founding Fathers designed, and we believe they weren’t wrong. Socialism would not work here, and you’re support of it is fine…but you have to put yourself here before you you speak, “stricktly speaking.”
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You seem to forget that when our country was founded, a doctor would accept a couple of chickens as payment for services rendered or some other form of barter than did not involve the sick person or their family having to bankrupt themselves to get the care they needed. Nowadays, I’d like to see what would happen if barter was attempted as payment for services. Doctors back then weren’t in it to make a profit off the miseries of others.
And a small point to remember is that we weren’t founded as a specifically Christian nation, but rather a nation where one would be free to practice whatever religion their conscience dictated, or no religion at all. That’s a big reason why people colonized this country — to get away from state mandated religion that dictated a person’s religious beliefs and practices.
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Rubi – yes I’m Al, but – I’m not particularly pro-obama. I’m a Bill Richardson/John Edwards type myself .
Most polls on Healthcare started off positive in wanting greater government healthcare input – before the “throw gramma under a train” style propaganda started. Willfull misrepresentations and flat out lies making the rounds in emails, robocalls, the blogosphere, radio, former batshit crazy veep candidates/
Bottom line – Obama is attempting to fulfil a campaign promise of significant healthcare reform to a system that will eat itself and that isn’t working except for the dirt poor or the richest, the lucky or those with dependents. A very large number of people in the middle are being left behind. fact.
The 6.7% number being bandied about above is a red herring as it doesn’t include the under-insured – or those a jobloss away, or those whose co-pay will be driven through the roof to get rid of them.
Stimulus money IS going to shovel ready projects – nuff said. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/02/11/obama_points_to_shovel-ready_t.html
Granted the USA was founded on different principles the “i’ve got mine, now you can bleep off and die” aspect being one of the most appealing, naturally. But Adam Smith one of the greatest economic minds of his generation believed that Government had its place in large projects that individuals can not bear alone – to that list in Europe we included healthcare.
In the USA things seemed to have stopped at – fire departments, police departments, port authoritys, the army, navy, air force, veterans affairs office, highyway patrol, highways authorities, saftey standards, food labeling, food additive awareness, narcotics control, medical drug approvals, k-12 education, adult education, broadcast regulation, CAFE standards, corporate regulation, money printing – yeah, a great free market you have for yourselves in so many areas.
Trust of a private institution who’s object is to make money over and above making people well/keeping them alive instead of trust in a Public body who’s interests are to make everybody well enough to be back on the tax paying rolls is a leap i will never be able to understand.
In the UK i have choice to go outside the NHS for physiotherapy, opthamology, poediatry, chiropody and inumerable other practices without waiting times of any description.
My father saw a cancer specialist within two weeks after a routine exam found an item of concern – thankfully it wasn’t cancerous but the wait was minimal. And its a service everyone gets – i would rather my dad wait two weeks and a hundred people be seen total than wait a day in a system closed to a huge number who need it based on cost.
As i said in my post – it’s a system that works for – charitably – 75% of people some percentage of the time. Keeping that (37th best) system elite enough to cater for the whims of visiting dignitaries and charity cases at the exspense of MILLIONS of onces own citizens is frankly bordering on the obscene.
Its an attitude akin to a village having acess to a clean spring that could water a million valleys over a million miles – but who refuse to open it to their singular neighbours during a day of drought for fear it will dry up entirely.
And the attidude of “you don’t understand our cultural heritage so you can’t understand us” (i’m paraphrasing) is a cop out. I never played striker for england but i know an open goal when i see one – and healthcare reform to cover everyone and cover everyone else adequately is that open goal.
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(previous italics are a cockup on mypart formatting)
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Will…I don’t know what religion has to do with this, but we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
I know as well as anyone else that long ago doctors made house calls and would either barter for services rendered, or, would except whatever the person or family could afford. Whether that be a pig or chopped firewood.
The other day on the news I saw a doctor interviewed that actually does make house calls! I didn’t hear anything about the fees…but hey, someone still does it.
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Wednesday shows that 31% of the nation’s voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Thirty-six percent (36%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -5
Barack Obama is quickly becoming a liability to the Democratic Party after yesterday’s awful performance at his own town hall meeting. Of course it was set up so that people couldn’t stand up and ask him questions about his health care plan…nor could they challenge the man, like folks have been doing at the senators and congressman’s town hall’s.
First he’s blaming doctors for amputating feet and hands in those with diabetes almost without discretion. But the big baby, and the one that I’ll bet he wished he could take back right after he said was, “Well, you see how well FedEx and UPS are doing in the private sector..and, and, then you can see how poorly the United States Post Office is performing.”
Yep…the USPS is the government and it is failing miserably and we’re the ones paying for it! And he somehow thinks that we could trust the government to run “health care”?????!!!
Everything…everything, without exception, that our government has put their hands on has failed. Anytime they think that they can do a better job than the private sector…they screw it up!!
Anyone whose been paying any attention at all, and who believes that our health care system needs to make some changes, and this is where Obama could start is 1) Tort reform…stop the frivolous medical malpractice lawsuits, and stop driving doctors out of business by jacking up the cost of malpractice insurance so high that they cannot afford to practice medicine at all!
2) Allow interstate insurance plans…so the if you can find a better plan in another state you can get it! It opens up tremendous competition and helps to provide for even better services at an even better price. This would include employer plans as well as private citizens plans.
You can’t account for the homeless in this because they don’t go to hospitals anyway…well, a good portion. Those that are poor and cannot afford insurance, let the private sector insurance companies devise top-rate plans for the poor or under-insured on a sliding scale basis. Let the private insurance companies scramble to compete…it’s a given that no matter what, they’ll do a whole lot better a job than the government.
Socialism? Sure…its a beginning. When you figure that the gov. owns a couple of car companies now, they’re able to tell banking execs what their salary will be, gov. run health care, passing bills that dictate minimum wage. At what point do you stop calling us a democracy and start calling us a socialist state?? Like it or not
OK…everything is screwing up with I guess the server so I’m shutting down now and will finish my thoughts later.
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Theres nowhere left to go on this thread.
“At what point do you stop calling us a democracy and start calling us a socialist state?? Like it or not”
You stop being a Democracy when you stop having elections or remove the franchise from vast swathes of people based on gender or colour etc. civics 101. If you want to debate various marxist definitions of democracy in states without elections – then fine. But otherwise, goodnight.
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Yes Al you’re right about no where to go on this thread. I know that we can agree to disagree which is the democratic way. Plus…any of this could be moot points anyway since the senate has not gotten a complete and comprehensive bill to go through.
And while I enjoy that fact that people are using these town halls to confront the senators and congress-people with what they perceive to be a final bill, and asking fair enough questions, those who are shouting out, “Read the bill”, over and over again should reconsider since they can’t read all of it; because not all of it, or them, have been completed.
Obama has 5 different plans, (currently on the table), that only he, ultimately, could sign into law. Most are authored by the Dems and supported by liberals, but it doesn’t mean that things won’t change. American’s are getting a taste of a future possibility and are speaking out against it…that’s the democratic way. And if Obama is listening and paying attention, which he’d better be, he’ll see just how passionate people are about all this and push for more clarity and transparency, and he will start to fulfill one of his campaign promises of stopping the status-quo in Washington, and being completely transparent. He needs to be because his poll numbers are slipping…across the board.
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“And it’s hard to explain why Canadians cross the vast northern border in droves to get their surgeries and procedures done here in the United States.”
Droves? Really Michael?? I’d like to know where you are getting your information. Is this more right-wing propaganda to instill fear into the hearts and minds of Americans? Tell me what you actually know about the Canadian health care system.
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No Laurie…it’s not right wing propaganda. I don’t do propaganda, or do I propagandize, even if it sounds good I won’t do it!
Naturally you wouldn’t get it on your news programs there, but I can point to several ABC/News commentaries, and news pieces. Even MSNBC which is even MORE liberal than ABC, has done pieces on people coming across the border. And these are complete with interviews etc.
No one has made it sound like a horror story, except that some people didn’t want to remain on a long waiting list for a certain surgery, some felt that they would get more of the care that they wanted, although I know for sure that Canada has some of the finest hospitals and doctors in the world. Toronto’s Sunnybrook/Womens Center for one.
I can only imagine what you go through with lil’ Miss Donna…so your health care has to be a Godsend! I would hope that something similar could be created here in the states for parents in the same position. But certainly you can testify that not all children medications fall under the health care umbrella…making them out-of-pocket expenses.
I’ll try to work on finding some of the news sources that I can link up for you…
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“Will…I don’t know what religion has to do with this, but we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles.”
Really? I think you refer to freedom from persecution because of religion. Considering that Jefferson and Franklin were atheists. Also, the “Founding Fathers Intended” is a bit odd considering that they were all slave-owners. It is therefore OK to depart from some principles of Founding Fathers, but for some reason it is not OK to depart from others. I fail to see the consistency of that.
I included Japan because it is also a free-market capitalist economy. I was wondering if you are condsidering it to be capitalist or socialist.
My argument was purely social economical. I am not sure why you quoted Rudd. After all the issue here is not outsiders refusing to adjust but extending health care to American citizens.
I also don’t do proganda. But since you don’t believe me, I reserve the right to not believe you. Because your views are very in tune with those of insurance CEOs.
Aiel, this is exactly the difference between Americans and Europeans. Over here nobody considers providing universal health care a “wealth distribution”. It is a right of all citizens, simple as that. Some European governments are very averse toward wealth distribution (although none to the American extreme) but universal healthcare is outside that scope.
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Bitzky…where and when did I EVER even imply that I don’t believe you?!
“I also don’t do proganda. But since you don’t believe me, I reserve the right to not believe you.”
That’s a pretty strong statement…especially considering that it’s untrue and incorrect! I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate your views, beliefs, and even your ideals. And I defy you to show me any inkling that I ever stated that I don’t believe you!
I don’t know what you mean by “quoting Rudd.”
I consider Japan to be a free-market capitalist society.
Wealth distribution here has nothing to do with health care. It’s taking from the wealthy, from the successful corporations, and any other profitable entity, and spreading that income around to the poor, the needy, the less fortunate, and anywhere else the government deems necessary through massive government programs. More tax and spend. And that my friends is the first step toward socialism….
Again Bitz…that’s a very strong statement. And I’d like for you to prove it if you can.
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You are so right Michael – we don’t get a lick of American news up here in the Great White North. We are just a bunch of hosers.
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My Spidey senses were tingling! I heard my name being used in vain!
I, famed #1 Daughter-San of Kinni, believe that Rubicon is correct. RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Everyone else is talking nonsense. Sweden not a part of Europe? Ideologue spelled without a u? Canadians fleeing to the safe haven of the American healthcare system? ALL TRUE!
Obama’s like a Communist Hitler! So powerful is he, all oxymorons quiver at his feet! Propoganda schmnopoganda! This is America right now: WHERE AM I GOING AND WHY AM I IN THIS HANDBASKET?!?!
No, no. Rubicon is right. POOR people do not deserve healthcare. LAZY people do not deserve healthcare. OLD people do not deserve healthcare. CHILDREN do not deserve healthcare! Especially children, those fucking drains on society. I mean, they don’t even pay taxes!
In fact, it would be really ideal of these “people” who can’t afford healthcare and would rely on this new socialised plan would just DIE OFF NOW! Think of all the money the American government would save! Money that could be put into schools and national parks and into research for a source of clean, renewable energy!
HAHAHAHAHAHA – I’m just kidding! Oh my god, did I scare you there??? Did I sound like a pinko tree-hugging queer? HAHAHA – no, I’m joking. Fuck trees, too. LET’S INVADE BRAZIL! Free-loving bastards.
Just the other day, I was watching our state run television channel, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and after being bombarded for a full HOUR with outrageous falsehoods about my life and country, I decided to broaden my horizons and check out how Canada was being portrayed south of the border, (in the REAL North America) so I put the TV to one of the US
news stations we get… I can’t remember which one… CNN? FOX? ABC? CBS? NBC? MSNBC? PBS? Wait… maybe it was the radio. NPR? Talk shows? Oh, I can’t remember! We get SO many of them, it’s hard to keep track. Anyway! Finally, in Glenn Beck’s dulcet tones, I heard the truth. CANADA SUCKS. Our “universal healthcare” is a JOKE! Now, I know you know that I am disabled and so very, very familiar with our healthcare system. I cannot even tell you how much time I’ve wasted waiting for consults and appointments with specialists. Do you know how much money we’ve spent on tests?! X-rays? CT scans? NOTHING! It’s ridiculous! Out there, some hard-working, tax-paying citizen has to foot the bill for all this! I’m positively outraged on their behalf. I am a BURDEN TO THE STATE and no one seems to care!!!
Do you know how long I’ve had to wait for surgeries?! Once, it was 4 days. FOUR DAYS! A lot can happen in four days! I was THISCLOSE to just packing my bags and going to Seattle for the operation. I mean, sure. It would have cost about $150,000 (US, of course. This Canadian funny money isn’t even worth the paper it’s printed on!) but that’s a small price to pay for no wait times. I mean, I know usually only wealthy people can afford to do this, and it’s typically for elective procedures, but if the Canadian government can’t put my needs ahead of some 50 yr old in need of a hip replacement due to an old hockey injury, then I don’t even want to live here anymore.
I really hope the readers of your blog see this reply, because the way they are jumping down your throat after your reasoned, well-thought out and impeccably researched post is simply reprehensible. I hope my support has allowed them to see some of the issues from a different perspective and maybe made them see the situation in their own countries a little more clearly.
God bless you, Rubicon, and God bless AMERICA!!!!!
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Disclaimer; this comment in going to be completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
Donna, you rawk. Like, hardcore. Please come back again!
Kinni, you rawk too, for raising the rawkin’ Donna.
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Hey Rube, guess what news station Jaco has on in the canteen at work. In Cape Town. In Deepest Darkest South Africa, only a few thousand miles from Alaska, butt of the whole world.
CNN!!!
Shock horror.
Hey, Rube – you do realise that all of your ‘American-Only’ news channels have websites? Do you realise that the internet is all like, global and shit?
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Wow… Donna, you definitely rawk!
Rube, I’d love to prove it to you. But it is a bit hard for me to prove reality to somebody that discards the bits of reality that doesn’t fit his ideology. What do you want as proof? Longer life expectancy? Surgeries per capita? Lower obesity rates? Cleaner hospital beds (joke)? We got it. Best thing would be to teleport you here (or to Canada) so that you will see for yourself how the dreaded “socialist” health care systems really work, instead of hearing it from Republican speech writers.